The real unmasked face behind the anti-immigration movement. Very important reading!

http://www.diatribune.com/racist-roots- ... movement-0

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelrep ... jsp?aid=93

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelrep ... sp?aid=663

http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com ... one-fight/

fsolis is just saying among other things, that Politicions or public leaders are using illegal immigration as a probe to lure in voters and populiarty among the traditonal "all-American" group.
-Normies

Well, I'm not disagreeing, nor have I disagreed that politicians are trying to capitalize on the anger and resentment of many "Americans" over illegal immigration. But I do disagree with the idea that it was politicians who started or made-up this issue. They seem to be reacting, and a little belatedly, to the complaints of their constituents.

and the truth is, and whether you disagree or not (depending on your economic belifs) The labour force needs immigrants to do the jobs that the typical "americans" prefer not to do.
-Normies

Well, that's an opinion, not really the truth. And it's an opinion based on emotion, not the reality of the situation--in my opinion. If immigrants stated asking for $20/hour do you honestly think they'd still be needed? Immigrants aren't needed, but in certain industries they are very much in demand.

My major complaint about this whole "debate" is that people tend to get far too emotional, and say many things with conviction that aren't really true at all. The whole "they wont do the jobs" rhetoric is just as silly to me as the "they're taking our jobs" whining. Of course, Americans will do the jobs, and jobs are for the employers to give.

I'm in favor of lifting and removing immigration quotas. Let the free-market decide how many immigrants are "needed." Of course, many unions ( people who lean towards socialist/communist/mercantilist thought) would be against that. Anyway, what I cant and wont do is stay silent on the bull shit rhetoric surrounding this issue. It just seems so dishonest to say that millions of immigrants have no affect or impact on wages.

In demand, needed. Whatever. If there was an acutal ligit case study out there that shows immigration has an affect on wages i would love to read on it (Not opinions).

I just dont see immigrants having a negative impact on wages. I mean, sure, they work for lower wages because of their lack of skill and i can see it hurting highschool drop outs but the US market rewards higher wages to people who are educated. The more education, the higher the wages.
Also, Immigrants pay a lot in taxes, we are talking about federal, state and local taxes. What about those that never claim Social Security or Medicare? I say this helps the average american not hurts.

Observer, People get emotional because they are touching on a very senstive topic. Its not just about wages its about skin color and culture differences. People are afraid of immigrants. I have wittnessed first hand how people who are non Latino make these issues racial and you can see this happening everywhere if you read on it.

Its natural to want to root for the people that share your back ground. People that look like you and share the same culture and values. The Irish and Italians came to this country to work on the rail roads and construction. Why does it have to be so heated when Mexicans/Latinos do the same?

In demand, needed. Whatever. If there was an acutal ligit case study out there that shows immigration has an affect on wages i would love to read on it (Not opinions).
-Normies

Not to be rude or even presumptuous, but it should be clear and obvious to most anyone that an increase in (legal and illegal) immigration--which also greatly tends to increase the supply of labor--does, all other things equal, have an affect on wages in certain job-markets. I mean, if there is an increase in anything (supply) and all other things stay unchanged (demand) the price of that good or service will fall. Anyone who has been to an auction knows this to be true.

Let's say you had a good (item-x) to sell (supply) on ebay (marketplace), and you had fifty bidders (demand) who were bidding on your good. Now let's say that 5 minutes after you put your item up for bid ten other people each put up an item-x for bid to those fifty bidders. Do you think that the increase in supply of item-x into the market-place, with demand unchanged--we're still only talking about 50 bidders--will result in a price drop or a price increase, or do you think the price will be unchanged? We know that increased competition on the supply side has the tendency to cause prices to drop. We see it all the time. When stores have a surplus of goods that they want to move quickly, they'll drop the price--have a sale--to increase sales. The same laws of supply and demand apply to any market, including a job-market.

An increase in (the supply of) labor in any job-market, all other things being equal, will result in a price drop for that labor (wages). Why do you suppose Cesar Chavez opposed illegal immigration? He knew that the increased competition would result in, among other things, lower wages for the workers he represented. I cant see how there is honest debate as to the question if increased immigration affects wages in some job-markets. Rather, the real debate to me is more about how much and which job-markets are affected, and does an increase in labor help to keep the price of goods and services relatively low. I mean, I hear it all the time from the pro-immigration side: "Do you really want to pay more for vegetables?" Well, people can't have it both ways and be intellectually honest. They can't use laws of economics to support their position and then dismiss them when they don't like the conclusions, if they want to be honest and consistent.

But I know that you want to read a study on the subject. And there is one by Dr.George J. Borjas. In his study he concluded that "statistical analysis shows that when immigration increases the supply of workers in a skill category, the earnings of native-born workers in that same category fall. The negative effect will occur regardless of whether the immigrant workers are legal or illegal..." I thought it was interesting and I hope you do too.

I just dont see immigrants having a negative impact on wages. I mean, sure, they work for lower wages because of their lack of skill and i can see it hurting highschool drop outs but the US market rewards higher wages to people who are educated. The more education, the higher the wages.
-Normies

Here, we are in total agreement. While I do recognize that illegal immigration (increased supply of labor) does depress wages in certain job-markets, I do not see that as a negative result. Of course, I work the job-market that doesn't tend to see an influx of illegal immigrants--like you mentioned.

But the terms "negative" and "positive" are subjective and dependent on one's perspective. I tend to see increased competition as a positive, as it is a cornerstone of capitalism. Look at the electronic market here. Is it a negative or a positive that there are so many suppliers of TVs, phones, and computers? Again, that would depend on one's perspective. If you were a consumer (like me), you'd probably view it as a positive (like me). But if you were affiliated with and had an economic interest ( i.e. stock holder or employee) with an electronic supplier, you probably view increased competition as a negative. Anyway, I view the increased competition that comes with immigration as a overall positive.

Now here is something that always strikes me as a funny change of heart on the part of many so-called conservative Republicans. They seem to always want to extol capitalistic principles, and speak against unions. However, when it comes to illegal immigration, many of these supposedly pro-capitalist conservatives often start to espouse rhetoric that would no doubt bring a smile to the faces of Lenin and Che. When discussing illegal immigration, I actually heard Sean Hannity mention "American" workers and how they should be able to earn a "decent wages" in the same breath--this is the same rhetoric that pro-union side (Democrats) espouse. What causes this change of heart, or more likely just a change their rhetoric? I think you've already touched on some of it.

People get emotional because they are touching on a very senstive topic. Its not just about wages its about skin color and culture differences. People are afraid of immigrants. I have wittnessed first hand how people who are 'white' make these issues racial and you can see this happening everywhere if you read on it.
-Normies

I have no illusions that this debate isn't also about xenophobia and ethnic chauvinism. I mean, I can see little else that would cause economic conservatives to start talking about workers' "rights" to a "decent living wage." If there was a large influx of white Britons illegally coming in to work construction or pick grapes, I highly doubt we'd see the same reaction we are seeing now. But what is the best way to counter the undercurrents of xenophobia in this debate? Ethnic chauvinism? Should those of us who are in favor of more a more lax immigration policy dismiss their arguments as simple irrational nonsense because many of those who are here illegally are Mexican/Brown?

I tend to want to keep emotionalism out of this debate, giving in to ethnic chauvinism (blindly supporting illegal immigrants just because they tend to be Brown) will just lead to counter ethnic chauvinism. And pretty soon all civility (even the pretense of civility) is a gone, and there is no debate only name-calling. I find that if I stay civil and explain my views in immigration I can find out who is sincere in their desire to understand my point, and who is just emotional xenophobe or emotional ethnic chauvinist.

So, I do and did understand why people often get so emotional over this issue. I was just saying that I don't think repeating illogical and counterintuitive rhetoric is the best response to rational arguments made by the anti-immigrant side.


Also, Immigrants pay a lot in taxes, we are talking about federal, state and local taxes. What about those that never claim Social Security or Medicare? I say this helps the average american not hurts.
-Normies

This seems believable to me. But since I don't think illegal immigrants net negative results, I don't usually concern myself too much with trying to argue "positives" like these. I tend to think that, while some Americans are harmed by increased immigration (legal and illegal) the average American benefits by the services provided by illegal immigrants--that's why there is such a high demand for their services. And those American that are harmed, are armed in a similar manner that Ford and GM are harmed by Honda and Toyota, it's a natural and desirable function of free-markets.

Its natural to want to root for the people that share your back ground. The Irish and Italians came to this country to work on the rail roads and construction. Why does it have to be so heated when Mexicans/Latinos do the same?
-Normies

It was pretty heated for the Irish and Italians when they immigrated in relatively large numbers too. In the 1800s, signs for employment often had "Irish Need Not Apply" written in them, and During the 1800s and early 20th Century, Italian Americans, being seen as non-Anglo and non-white, were the second most likely ethnic group to be lynched.

No matter what side of the immigration topic side of the fence, anyone of us is on. No one is going to just stop, illegal immigration and deport 12 million immigrants all at once! Also nothing, and no one will impede the flow of foreign workers into the U.S.A., if market conditions demand it, and "the U.S. government and the business sector want it that way." "The government makes the laws, and we must obey." All we can do as citizens is exercise our freedom to vote, everything else is just either an opinion,or conjecture, and that is it! Personally I am in favor of getting everyone I know, to vote Democratic party all the way! :Clap:

The truth is that illegal immigrants are here because the U.S. government allows it, and buisnesses need them here. It's just easy to blame the poor people who can't defend themselves when things don't go the way we want them.
I trully beleive that "border patroll" is a joke. Seriously. Either Mexicans trying to get in to the U.S. are super clever and able to outsmart the U.S. government, or our "border patroll" is completly incomppitent. How do you expalin so many people comming in year after year? When we supposedly increased the border patroll. I beleive the U.S. "border patroll" is simply just allowing a certain percentage of mexicans to enter the country every year, because the government knows we need them here. It's just easier to have workers come in illegally so they can be denied rights and services vs. bringing in people to do the work, like braceros, for example, because then the government would then have to provide them with some accomadations. By allowing illegal immigrants to come in, but saying they don't, the government saves some money and when they decide they don't need them anymore, they can simply start blamming them for all the countries problems. It's all a conspiracy, it's always whatever serves the U.S.
bottom line. illegal immigrants are here because the U.S. government wants them here and allowed them to come here.

^ yeah, what she said.

Jeasus christ Observer, you wrote a go#damn novel Shit, if my husband spent half the time you spent on my opinions I would be one lucky lady .mrgreen.
Ill have to read it during my coffee break.....

New Information Confirming Minorities Gaining Ground In U.S.A.!

By Mid-Century, Almost 20% Of Americans Will Be Immigrants, Study Projects! Link Below.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-pe ... 1020.story